So Ukraine is going to capitulate to Russia

[TheButcher]

If we let Putin take Ukraine then he will have control over both the world's oil and gas supply AND the world's food supply

@Butcher - I respect your opinion but I honestly dont understand how you can side with a man like Putin. This is a guy who rules by fear and routinely murders his opponents. We all watched the public murder of Prigozhin a few months back and then there was the poisining attempt of his number 1 critic, Navalny (who he's now thrown in jail). Back in 2004 he poisened the president of Ukraine, Victor Yushchenko and then there was the shooting dead of the opposition leader Boris Nemtsov right outside the kremlin

Hes used weapons of mass destruction (ie Novichoc - one of the most deadly nerve toxins ever created) not only in his country but in the UK and Germany too. Its been proven that he's guilty of interfering in US and UK elections and is responsible for dozens of cyber attacks

We all know just what this man is capable of and I know you've voiced a negative opinion of him in the past.

I respect your opinion but I just dont understand it

I respect your opinion too Tacnet, I do not side with Putin at all I actually do not like the man one bit. My point all along in this Ukraine war has been about the reality on the ground. Zelensky ran on a peace platform got into office went gung ho on trying to wipe out the ethnic Russian in the Dombas region. There is no way Putin was going to sit by let that happen and have NATO at it's borders.

All that talk of Minsk one and two was an act to buy time to arm Ukraine, that's not me saying this, it's out there. The former German Chancellor Angela Merkel said it.

I doubt after being taken for that ride Putin will agree to any cease fire or deal. He is going to go for everything he said he wanted to accomplish at the out set of this conflict.

That is my 2 cents on things.

[tacnet]

If we let Putin take Ukraine then he will have control over both the world's oil and gas supply AND the world's food supply

@Butcher - I respect your opinion but I honestly dont understand how you can side with a man like Putin. This is a guy who rules by fear and routinely murders his opponents. We all watched the public murder of Prigozhin a few months back and then there was the poisining attempt of his number 1 critic, Navalny (who he's now thrown in jail). Back in 2004 he poisened the president of Ukraine, Victor Yushchenko and then there was the shooting dead of the opposition leader Boris Nemtsov right outside the kremlin

Hes used weapons of mass destruction (ie Novichoc - one of the most deadly nerve toxins ever created) not only in his country but in the UK and Germany too. Its been proven that he's guilty of interfering in US and UK elections and is responsible for dozens of cyber attacks

We all know just what this man is capable of and I know you've voiced a negative opinion of him in the past.

I respect your opinion but I just dont understand it

I respect your opinion too Tacnet, I do not side with Putin at all I actually do not like the man one bit. My point all along in this Ukraine war has been about the reality on the ground. Zelensky ran on a peace platform got into office went gung ho on trying to wipe out the ethnic Russian in the Dombas region. There is no way Putin was going to sit by let that happen and have NATO at it's borders.

All that talk of Minsk one and two was an act to buy time to arm Ukraine, that's not me saying this, it's out there. The former German Chancellor Angela Merkel said it.

I doubt after being taken for that ride Putin will agree to any cease fire or deal. He is going to go for everything he said he wanted to accomplish at the out set of this conflict.

That is my 2 cents on things.

This all started long before Zelensky was elected president.

Back in 2004, Victor Yushchenko ran for president of Ukraine on a promise of taking the country west and making a trade deal with the EU and moving towards NATO. Putin didn't want this and tried to murder Yushenko by posining him with dioxin. He survived but was completely dissfigured (see before and after below)



Then Putin tried to rig the election and declare his candidate (Viktor Yanukovych) the winner. This led to massive protests all accross Ukraine (called the Orange Revolution) and, after a re-run, Yushchenko was declared the winner. Since then Putin has done everything he can to stir up trouble including arming the seperatists in the east in an attempt to pull the country back towards Russia

The Ukranians have voted time and time again for independance from Russia and the right to decide for themselves who runs their country. They have clearly demonstrated that they want to move west and be part of the EU and I dont think Putin should have the right to dictate how ANY country outside Russia governs themselves

After all, Finland has just joined NATO and they have a much bigger border with Russia than Ukraine

[BHT]

Even he knows the fat lady is singing and his time is up.

[Sammy]

Good let the war end

[tacnet]

If Putin wins this it will be a disaster for the world

Think about it. Firstly NATO would probably be dispanded as it would have proven itself too weak to stand up to Putin (which was the whole purpose of NATO in the first place). And bearing in mind that Trump wants to pull out of NATO anyway. Without NATO what's to stop Putin going after Poland, Finland or the Baltic countries ??? They are all much weaker countries right on his border

And if Putin takes Ukraine he would control a big chunk of the world's wheat and grain supply aswell as being the 2nd biggest oil and gas producer in the world. He would have the rest of us by the balls !

Ontop of that, if Putin gets away with it then what's to stop China from forming an alliance with Russia and going after Taiwan ?? So far China has stayed out of this war but if Putin takes Ukraine, Russia becomes a much more attractive ally and a Russia + China alliance would be HUGE threat to the west, especially in the absence of NATO

[TheButcher]

If Putin wins this it will be a disaster for the world

Think about it. Firstly NATO would probably be dispanded as it would have proven itself too weak to stand up to Putin (which was the whole purpose of NATO in the first place). And bearing in mind that Trump wants to pull out of NATO anyway. Without NATO what's to stop Putin going after Poland, Finland or the Baltic countries ??? They are all much weaker countries right on his border

And if Putin takes Ukraine he would control a big chunk of the world's wheat and grain supply aswell as being the 2nd biggest oil and gas producer in the world. He would have the rest of us by the balls !

Ontop of that, if Putin gets away with it then what's to stop China from forming an alliance with Russia and going after Taiwan ?? So far China has stayed out of this war but if Putin takes Ukraine, Russia becomes a much more attractive ally and a Russia + China alliance would be HUGE threat to the west, especially in the absence of NATO

Adrian you know what i said around February 24th 2022, this thing was not a question of if but how much Putin wants to go take. What he will not dare do is encroach ona NATO country. The only way Russia can fight NATO is nuclear. No one in their right mind wants a nuclear war. He is not going to take Ukraine, he is going to consolidate the regions he has already taken and I think move further west take Odessa. Ukraine will be a land locked country with no access to the Black sea.

I doubt China is waiting to see how Russia does in Ukraine to decide what to do with Taiwan, just before this conflict broke out both Xi and Putin announced they were committed to each other's security and defense with no limits.I don;t see China making a military move on Taiwan unless the Taiwanese separatists declare independence. China sees Taiwan as one of it's provinces and is not looking to attack it's own people unless shit hits the fan as I said.

[tacnet]

If Putin wins this it will be a disaster for the world

Think about it. Firstly NATO would probably be dispanded as it would have proven itself too weak to stand up to Putin (which was the whole purpose of NATO in the first place). And bearing in mind that Trump wants to pull out of NATO anyway. Without NATO what's to stop Putin going after Poland, Finland or the Baltic countries ??? They are all much weaker countries right on his border

And if Putin takes Ukraine he would control a big chunk of the world's wheat and grain supply aswell as being the 2nd biggest oil and gas producer in the world. He would have the rest of us by the balls !

Ontop of that, if Putin gets away with it then what's to stop China from forming an alliance with Russia and going after Taiwan ?? So far China has stayed out of this war but if Putin takes Ukraine, Russia becomes a much more attractive ally and a Russia + China alliance would be HUGE threat to the west, especially in the absence of NATO

Adrian you know what i said around February 24th 2022, this thing was not a question of if but how much Putin wants to go take. What he will not dare do is encroach ona NATO country. The only way Russia can fight NATO is nuclear. No one in their right mind wants a nuclear war. He is not going to take Ukraine, he is going to consolidate the regions he has already taken and I think move further west take Odessa. Ukraine will be a land locked country with no access to the Black sea.

I doubt China is waiting to see how Russia does in Ukraine to decide what to do with Taiwan, just before this conflict broke out both Xi and Putin announced they were committed to each other's security and defense with no limits.I don;t see China making a military move on Taiwan unless the Taiwanese separatists declare independence. China sees Taiwan as one of it's provinces and is not looking to attack it's own people unless shit hits the fan as I said.

I hear what you are saying but my point is that if Putin comes out of this war with half of Ukraine under his belt then there may not be a NATO to resist him elsewhere. At the moment almost all of NATO is aligned against Russia but only 2 things need to happen to pretty much spell the end of NATO. 1 - They loose a war (ie Ukraine is forced to cave in) and 2 - Trump gets elected and pulls the US out.

If both those things happen then thats the end of NATO and that changes everything. Putin will have completely changed the world order with no one to oppose him if he decides to go after Poland, Finland or the baltic countries. Plus he will have control of around a quarter of the world's fuel and food resources. He will literally have the west by the balls !

Even if he takes Odessa then that's just as bad as that would effectively prevent Ukraine from being able to export its grain so we could expect to see a big spike in food prices

[TheButcher]

I hear what you are saying but my point is that if Putin comes out of this war with half of Ukraine under his belt then there may not be a NATO to resist him elsewhere. At the moment almost all of NATO is aligned against Russia but only 2 things need to happen to pretty much spell the end of NATO. 1 - They loose a war (ie Ukraine is forced to cave in) and 2 - Trump gets elected and pulls the US out.

Technically Russia is not fighting Nato in Ukraine, even though we are backing Ukraine as if it was one of ours member countries. Trump may or may not get re-elected but the real powers to be will not let him pull out of Nato.

If both those things happen then thats the end of NATO and that changes everything. Putin will have completely changed the world order with no one to oppose him if he decides to go after Poland, Finland or the baltic countries. Plus he will have control of around a quarter of the world's fuel and food resources. He will literally have the west by the balls !

As I mentioned doubt Putin is not dumb enough to go after a Nato country, that country would invoke Article 5 and the only option for his survival would be to use nukes. No one wants to use nukes they are the end of the world.

Even if he takes Odessa then that's just as bad as that would effectively prevent Ukraine from being able to export its grain so we could expect to see a big spike in food prices

I would be very surprised if he does not take Odessa, and maybe even a land bridge to Transnistria. The bigger problem for Ukraine is will Poland, Hungary and Romania want to carve up some of their old historical territories for themselves nonce Russia has taken it's share.

[Kev]

How can this war end when Zelensky passed a law preventing making a deal with Putin?

[webcamhostess]

It is not going too well for Ukraine I feel so bad for them. My friend is from over there and she wants to go back when this is all over.

[BrasSmonkey]

butcher is turning all minister.... that is some bible truth. ukraine should make terms and surrender. keeping what they have now is the deal. they never tried to protect themselves! do you see any real defense points??? fold into mother russia!!!