the world is splitting into 2 camps

[CTE]

Those with us and those with the Russian and Chinese, any one else notice this.

[tacnet]

Thats the truth. Its like the cold war is starting up again

Nobody wants a war but by the same token, we cant give in to aggression.

Putin started this and we cannot negotiate with someone who says your country has no right to exist

[TheButcher]

Back in 1971 then president Nixon sent his national security advisor Henry Kissinger to set the stage for a meeting and opening of diplomatic ties between the two countries, this was one mega smart move by the US president, he realized 50 plus years ago the best way to deal with Russia which was part of the Soviet Union at the time (for all intents and purposes was the big dog in that setup) was to stop it from teaming up with China. You know the old adage divide and conquer. It worked, China started doing business with the west aka Us and Russia became isolated.

The point is Nixon and in particular Kissinger thought it out, planned 5 moves a head of the others saw what was in the best interest of the US. Fast forward 50 years and when the Ukraine conflict started the US and the west started putting sanctions, seizing Russian assets and money to try hurt Russia and get Ukraine to won the conflict. This will be remembered in history as a big flop and it has so far backfired. I seriously doubt anyone had thought it past step one, what will happen if Russia gets cornered and their assets frozen, it will raise alarm bells for the bigger fish in the world China. China already has a simmering problem with Taiwan and it fears the US and allies will come to defend the island if war breaks out.

As the saying goes, my enemies enemy is my friend, China and Russia have moved closer not that they were ever great buddies but out of necessity. China has realized if it does go to war with Taiwan the US and west will put sanctions and seize their assets.

The sooner a peace deal is struck in this conflict the better everyone around the world will be, I have said it before war broke out and ever since, there is no way Russia is going to lose this one. They see it as an existential threat to their survival. If any third country officially enters the conflict they will feel cornered and resort to nukes.

I am not saying I agree with either side, i am looking at it from an outsiders point of view and being realistic. Ukraine is burning through ammo and equipment that is depleting western stocks, and if war does break out with China all that stuff being sent to Ukraine is going to be sorely needed.

Some smarter people than me in power need to sit down say let's find an off ramp, make the best deal we can so this thing does not end up in world destruction, because any WW3 will involve nukes and the planet will be non inhabitable for centuries to come.

My 2 cents.

[tacnet]

The difference between 1971 and now is back then, Russia had NOT started a war with a sovereign democratic country

This is exactly what happened with Hitler. We let him take Austria and we did nothing. Then he invaded Czechoslovakia and we let him get away with it. Finally he invaded Poland and we were at war. The lesson we learned is that if we had stood up to him in the first place, then the 2nd world war need not have happened

Now we are in the same position again. Russia first invaded Georgia and we let him get away with it. Then he took Crimea and still we did nothing. Now he has invaded Ukraine and if we dont stand up to him now, he wont stop there.

He has already declared his plan to rebuild the Soviet Union (just like Hitler did). He routinely assasinates opponents of his around the world. He's used poison gas in Syria and he's even used chemical weapons on British soil....twice !!.

This is NOT a person we should be giving in to, this is a person who needs to be stopped. And in any case, how do you negotiate with someone who says your country has no right to exist ??? How do you even start that conversation ??

I dont believe this will break out into an all out nuclear war. Everybody knows that the first person to cross that line will be game over. They will be condemned by the entire world and likely be wiped off the planet. Even Putin isn't stupid enough to cross that line and if he does, I think his generals will likely overthrow him

My 2 cents

[Sandman]

not saying i agree with what russia is doing but the usa has done more bullshit and killed more innocent people then russia since the end of the cold war.

sure you can blast russia for ukrain but the usa/nato has destroyed iraq libia Afghanistan and tried to destroy Syria , so again not saying i agree with russia but they are not doing anything wrong compared to the usa , and dont tell me how Ukraine is this great democracy when their former president was disposed and no one from the east voted in what the last 2 western elections.

Ukraine is a divided country no matter war or not.

and honestly if you believe the bullshit about the Georgia war your implying then you really have drank the anti russia koolaid

The difference between 1971 and now is back then, Russia had NOT started a war with a sovereign democratic country

This is exactly what happened with Hitler. We let him take Austria and we did nothing. Then he invaded Czechoslovakia and we let him get away with it. Finally he invaded Poland and we were at war. The lesson we learned is that if we had stood up to him in the first place, then the 2nd world war need not have happened

Now we are in the same position again. Russia first invaded Georgia and we let him get away with it. Then he took Crimea and still we did nothing. Now he has invaded Ukraine and if we dont stand up to him now, he wont stop there.

He has already declared his plan to rebuild the Soviet Union (just like Hitler did). He routinely assasinates opponents of his around the world. He's used poison gas in Syria and he's even used chemical weapons on British soil....twice !!.

This is NOT a person we should be giving in to, this is a person who needs to be stopped. And in any case, how do you negotiate with someone who says your country has no right to exist ??? How do you even start that conversation ??

I dont believe this will break out into an all out nuclear war. Everybody knows that the first person to cross that line will be game over. They will be condemned by the entire world and likely be wiped off the planet. Even Putin isn't stupid enough to cross that line and if he does, I think his generals will likely overthrow him

My 2 cents

[TheButcher]

The difference between 1971 and now is back then, Russia had NOT started a war with a sovereign democratic country

This is exactly what happened with Hitler. We let him take Austria and we did nothing. Then he invaded Czechoslovakia and we let him get away with it. Finally he invaded Poland and we were at war. The lesson we learned is that if we had stood up to him in the first place, then the 2nd world war need not have happened

Now we are in the same position again. Russia first invaded Georgia and we let him get away with it. Then he took Crimea and still we did nothing. Now he has invaded Ukraine and if we dont stand up to him now, he wont stop there.

He has already declared his plan to rebuild the Soviet Union (just like Hitler did). He routinely assasinates opponents of his around the world. He's used poison gas in Syria and he's even used chemical weapons on British soil....twice !!.

This is NOT a person we should be giving in to, this is a person who needs to be stopped. And in any case, how do you negotiate with someone who says your country has no right to exist ??? How do you even start that conversation ??

I dont believe this will break out into an all out nuclear war. Everybody knows that the first person to cross that line will be game over. They will be condemned by the entire world and likely be wiped off the planet. Even Putin isn't stupid enough to cross that line and if he does, I think his generals will likely overthrow him

My 2 cents

Adrian do you honestly believe there is any chance that Russia will not win this war, it's not as if I am rooting for them, I just see the wood for the trees, they seem to be holding up pretty well with just about every country in the west supplying Ukraine with money, equipment and advisors. We pretty much are at war with Russia since last February.

What has it been 10 rounds of sanctions and guess what their inflation is under control, their currency is performing very well, their people are employed, they are replacing western goods from other places, they are not hurting to keep warm in the Winter. Look at the price of gas, everything in the grocery stores, we are the ones suffering not them. You would think after one or two rounds of sanctions and not allowing to buy Russian oil and gas we would have said this ain't working, it's costing us more. I heard the other day on CNN I think it was that they are working on an 11th round of sanctions.

One of the definitions of insanity is to repeat the same thing you are doing hoping for a different outcome.

This thing could break out into all out war any minute, one missile goes off course lands in another country we will have boots on the ground. And there is no way Russia can stand up to Nato so they will go all out use nukes.

The best thing is to stop people dying, I am not on anyone's side but people are people and they are dying on both sides. Let's stop the bloodshed, sit down talk out a deal. I guarantee you what territories that they have taken will never be part of Ukraine ever again, the question for Ukraine and the west is how much more land mass do we want the Russians to take over.

Every war eventually comes to an end at the negotiating table, this would not be the first time.

[shoopa]

You know all this money we give Ukraine are they paying us back when the war is over?

[AlexO]

You know all this money we give Ukraine are they paying us back when the war is over?

Wait we are giving away a hundred billion plus for free when we have homeless people all over our cities, kids going to be hungry, people can not afford healthcare,you shitting me?

[dom_trev]

They are not in nato so let them fight their own war why are we wasting tax dollars over there

[tacnet]

With respect, I think you are all missing the bigger picture here

Ask yourself this question :- Why has Finland and Sweden suddenly joined NATO ???? Both countries have been fiercly neutral for decades and now they are suddenly scrambling to get into NATO, why ???

Is it because they have suddenly found a desire to support Ukraine ??? No. The simple answer is, its because they can see they are next !

This is NOT a simple border dispute between Ukraine and Russia. (Bear in mind that the war over the Donbas and eastern Ukraine has been going on for 8 years and the west never got involved) This is a war for the very future of democracy !

Putin has made it perfectly clear that he intends to rebuild the Soviet Union back to its 1991 borders. That means Ukraine, Poland, Hungary, Sweden, Finland and even East Germany

Lets say we do as you suggest and stop supporting Ukraine and just let Putin take it. What happens next ? Well we tried that approach when we let him take Crimea and look what happened, he's come back for more. If we dont stop him now, he will roll onto the rest of Europe and we will be in a world war for sure

Also dont forget that if we let Putin win then that is a huge signal to China that the west is weak and they can go ahead and invade Taiwan

Now you could argue "well what about what the west has done over the years ?" and thats true to some extent. But the difference is that our governments are accountable to us. If we dont like what they do, then we can vote them out !

Putin has no such restraints. Anybody that opposes him ends up dead or in jail !

Ukraine are fighting the war on our behalf right now. And if we let them loose, then WE will be fighting the war and it will be a world war !

[TheButcher]

Putin has made it perfectly clear that he intends to rebuild the Soviet Union back to its 1991 borders. That means Ukraine, Poland, Hungary, Sweden, Finland and even East Germany

I doubt he will ever attack a NATO country he is not stupid. I have never read any where him saying or implying he wants to attack any country, can you show me one proof where he has said this.

[tacnet]

Putin has made it perfectly clear that he intends to rebuild the Soviet Union back to its 1991 borders. That means Ukraine, Poland, Hungary, Sweden, Finland and even East Germany

I doubt he will ever attack a NATO country he is not stupid. I have never read any where him saying or implying he wants to attack any country, can you show me one proof where he has said this.

He has said it countless times. That's the whole reason Sweden and Finland decided to join NATO, so that he wouldn't attack them. Otherwise why bother ?

To Putin, the fall of the Soviet Union was a huge betrayal. There's a good BBC documentary about this, featuring Putin himself - https://www.bbcselect.com/watch/putin-vs-the-west/

There's lots of other reports on this from both the left and the right. https://www.google.com/search?q=putin+r ... viet+union

You have to ask yourself why are all these countries pouring billions of dollars into Ukrain ? Not just NATO but other countries aswell ??

Its not because they have a sudden affinity towards Ukraine. Far from it, its to stop this going any further and developing into a world war

[TheButcher]

Putin has made it perfectly clear that he intends to rebuild the Soviet Union back to its 1991 borders. That means Ukraine, Poland, Hungary, Sweden, Finland and even East Germany

I doubt he will ever attack a NATO country he is not stupid. I have never read any where him saying or implying he wants to attack any country, can you show me one proof where he has said this.

He has said it countless times. That's the whole reason Sweden and Finland decided to join NATO, so that he wouldn't attack them. Otherwise why bother ?

To Putin, the fall of the Soviet Union was a huge betrayal. There's a good BBC documentary about this, featuring Putin himself - https://www.bbcselect.com/watch/putin-vs-the-west/

You have to ask yourself why are all these countries pouring billions of dollars into Ukrain ? Not just NATO but other countries aswell ??

Its not because they have a sudden affinity towards Ukraine. Far from it, its to stop this going any further and developing into a world war

I just watched that 2 min 42 second clip, never saw him say anything to the effect of he wants to invade other countries or reconstitute the former Soviet Union. Why are countries pouring in billions of dollars into Ukraine, simple their arms manufacturers are raking in money hand over fist. It's the same in every country, politicians get donations from special interest groups, they do what their donors want, so they get more donations. In some countries it is in the open and lawful in some cases the contributions which are basically bribes pass under the table.

As I have said many times, I don't really care who wins but the ordinary people end up dying because politicians can not do their jobs right and negotiate deals. If elected officials did their jobs right it would not lead to war. War is a failure of diplomacy. And guess what none of the sons of these people sending people to war ever participate and get killed.

"War is a failure of diplomacy" is not my line, it was said by the late Tony Benn on 28 February 1991. Adrian I am sure you know who he was.

This madness needs to end, people are suffering getting hurt and dying in Ukraine, the average person anywhere in the world wants to live in peace, go about their daily lives and not fight with anyone.

[tacnet]

I doubt he will ever attack a NATO country he is not stupid. I have never read any where him saying or implying he wants to attack any country, can you show me one proof where he has said this.

He has said it countless times. That's the whole reason Sweden and Finland decided to join NATO, so that he wouldn't attack them. Otherwise why bother ?

To Putin, the fall of the Soviet Union was a huge betrayal. There's a good BBC documentary about this, featuring Putin himself - https://www.bbcselect.com/watch/putin-vs-the-west/

You have to ask yourself why are all these countries pouring billions of dollars into Ukrain ? Not just NATO but other countries aswell ??

Its not because they have a sudden affinity towards Ukraine. Far from it, its to stop this going any further and developing into a world war

I just watched that 2 min 42 second clip, never saw him say anything to the effect of he wants to invade other countries or reconstitute the former Soviet Union. Why are countries pouring in billions of dollars into Ukraine, simple their arms manufacturers are raking in money hand over fist. It's the same in every country, politicians get donations from special interest groups, they do what their donors want, so they get more donations. In some countries it is in the open and lawful in some cases the contributions which are basically bribes pass under the table.

As I have said many times, I don't really care who wins but the ordinary people end up dying because politicians can not do their jobs right and negotiate deals. If elected officials did their jobs right it would not lead to war. War is a failure of diplomacy. And guess what none of the sons of these people sending people to war ever participate and get killed.

"War is a failure of diplomacy" is not my line, it was said by the late Tony Benn on 28 February 1991. Adrian I am sure you know who he was.

This madness needs to end, people are suffering getting hurt and dying in Ukraine, the average person anywhere in the world wants to live in peace, go about their daily lives and not fight with anyone.

You watched the trailer, not the entire documentary where Putin says himself about the collapse of the soviet union. Look at all the reports about this https://www.google.com/search?q=putin+r ... viet+union. Even Fox News, CNN, Biden and Trump agree on this one.

If you think that this is all just so weapons manufacturers can make money then your seriously mistaken.

Just look at all the pain Europe has gone through to free itself from Russian fossil fuels. Germany has gone from 40% of its energy from Russia down to just 6%. Other countries are following suit.

This is NOT just becaue somebody is getting bribes somewhere along the line. Its because Russia has become a serious threat to western democracy

Im afriad we will just have to agree to disagree on this one

[TheButcher]

You watched the trailer, not the entire documentary where Putin says himself about the collapse of the soviet union. Look at all the reports about this https://www.google.com/search?q=putin+r ... viet+union. Even Fox News, CNN, Biden and Trump agree on this one.

I can not find any whre in the links you posted where he says he wants to rebuild the Soviet Union. Please paste me one link where he says that.



If you think that this is all just so weapons manufacturers can make money then your seriously mistaken.

Just look at all the pain Europe has gone through to free itself from Russian fossil fuels. Germany has gone from 40% of its energy from Russia down to just 6%. Other countries are following suit.

Who is to blame for that, it wasn't Russia that stopped selling Europe oil or gas, it was Europe who put sanctions and restrictions on Russian oil and gas.

This is NOT just becaue somebody is getting bribes somewhere along the line. Its because Russia has become a serious threat to western democracy

When the Soviet Union collapsed Russia's dream was to be accepted as a member of the European states, they always wanted to be a European country, we turned them down, we said no. Now they have turned eastwards and not by choice, but for survival.

Im afriad we will just have to agree to disagree on this one

I respect you for debating any issue with me without taking it personally, I mean this sincerely, a lot of people I discuss abortion, climate change or anything else it gets personal and the discussion breaks down in a not so respectful way.

Peace