Looks like Putin is going to declare war

[jag]

[T.B.W]

Things will heat up when this 4 referendums are over next week and those 4 regions become part of Russia. The SMO will turn to war if the Ukraine tried to take them back or attack them.

[AlexO]

Things will heat up when this 4 referendums are over next week and those 4 regions become part of Russia. The SMO will turn to war if the Ukraine tried to take them back or attack them.

Every one keeps talking of WW3 and nukes, how many wars have we been thru in just my life time. They all stay local. Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan,Libya,just to name a few. Every time there is a conflict people start saying this will be WW3 no it won't.

[tacnet]

Things will heat up when this 4 referendums are over next week and those 4 regions become part of Russia. The SMO will turn to war if the Ukraine tried to take them back or attack them.

Every one keeps talking of WW3 and nukes, how many wars have we been thru in just my life time. They all stay local. Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan,Libya,just to name a few. Every time there is a conflict people start saying this will be WW3 no it won't.

I hope your right but the only problem with that is Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya DONT have nuculear or chemical weapons whereas Putin DOES AND has made several threats to use them

And as T.B.W. said, once he declares these regions Russian, he will say that any attack on them is an attack on Russia itself and therefore he has the right to defend them with "any means necessary". This is exactly what he did in Crimea

The fact that he is now having to draft in conscripts (which incidentally is the first time this has happened in Europe since the 2nd world war) shows that he is getting desperate.

And a desperate Putin could be a dangerous Putin

[AlexO]

And a desperate Putin could be a dangerous Putin

Good point time Biden sat down had a one on one talk said time to make peace,he has the power to do it.

[CanadianChick]

How do you see this war ending?

[tacnet]

How do you see this war ending?

I think at some point Putin's generals will get together to push him out of office

They must realise that he's made a right balls up of this whole thing. What was planned as a quick and decisive 3 or 4 week campaign has now gone on for 7 months, he's loosing territory and has now had to draft civilians to supliment his army. Ontop of that there are the sanctions that will be beginning to bite and even China, his main ally will not provide him with military support

What might end it real quick is if he tries to carry out his threat to use nuclear weapons to defend Russian terratory (which would include the areas where he is currently holding the referendums)

I would think at that point, his generals would HAVE to step in and take over. They know that if they used nuclear weapons, it would be game over. Nato would HAVE to respond and we outgun him in every way

Nobody wants this war but what we CANNOT do is give into him. Just as with Hitler, appeasement only makes the aggressor stronger. If he gets away with this he will go for Poland, Finland and all the other former eastern block countries. Not to mention that China would probably feel emboldened to take Taiwan and then we would be in WW3 for sure.

[TheButcher]

How do you see this war ending?

I think at some point Putin's generals will get together to push him out of office

They must realise that he's made a right balls up of this whole thing. What was planned as a quick and decisive 3 or 4 week campaign has now gone on for 7 months, he's loosing territory and has now had to draft civilians to supliment his army. Ontop of that there are the sanctions that will be beginning to bite and even China, his main ally will not provide him with military support

What might end it real quick is if he tries to carry out his threat to use nuclear weapons to defend Russian terratory (which would include the areas where he is currently holding the referendums)

I would think at that point, his generals would HAVE to step in and take over. They know that if they used nuclear weapons, it would be game over. Nato would HAVE to respond and we outgun him in every way

Nobody wants this war but what we CANNOT do is give into him. Just as with Hitler, appeasement only makes the aggressor stronger. If he gets away with this he will go for Poland, Finland and all the other former eastern block countries. Not to mention that China would probably feel emboldened to take Taiwan and then we would be in WW3 for sure.

With all due respect I really do not agree with any of that. He is more popular now than ever before, what happens in every country is the people come together behind their leader at a time of war. No matter if the war is justified or not, that is another story in itself.

In my personal opinion Ukraine is losing in every way and the sooner they sit down make a lasting ceasefire the better for them. The average Russian in Russia is going about their daily life, the average Ukrainian is living under threat of war how sad is that. I personally hate seeing people die because politicians did not prevent a war. Ukraine is about to lose about 109,000 square kilometres of land in the 4 referendums underway.

Where will the Russians go once these 4 areas are under their control, probably further west and take over Odessa, the only remaining Black sea access Ukraine has, then what happens. They will not be able to send and receive cargo by sea, enough is enough someone needs to sit both sides down say make a ceasefire, stop the fighting and work out a lasting peace agreement. I simply can not see these two sides taking the initiative to do it on their own, someone needs to call a serious sit down and bring them to the table before things get worse.

I doubt the areas captured by Russia will ever go back to Ukraine at this point it is how much more of Ukraine will remain in Ukraine, so the sooner a ceasefire is announced the better.

I honestly only care about the average person who is now living in fear of being killed in this war, people everywhere just want to live their life in peace and take care of their family.

[tacnet]

How do you see this war ending?

I think at some point Putin's generals will get together to push him out of office

They must realise that he's made a right balls up of this whole thing. What was planned as a quick and decisive 3 or 4 week campaign has now gone on for 7 months, he's loosing territory and has now had to draft civilians to supliment his army. Ontop of that there are the sanctions that will be beginning to bite and even China, his main ally will not provide him with military support

What might end it real quick is if he tries to carry out his threat to use nuclear weapons to defend Russian terratory (which would include the areas where he is currently holding the referendums)

I would think at that point, his generals would HAVE to step in and take over. They know that if they used nuclear weapons, it would be game over. Nato would HAVE to respond and we outgun him in every way

Nobody wants this war but what we CANNOT do is give into him. Just as with Hitler, appeasement only makes the aggressor stronger. If he gets away with this he will go for Poland, Finland and all the other former eastern block countries. Not to mention that China would probably feel emboldened to take Taiwan and then we would be in WW3 for sure.

With all due respect I really do not agree with any of that. He is more popular now than ever before, what happens in every country is the people come together behind their leader at a time of war. No matter if the war is justified or not, that is another story in itself.

In my personal opinion Ukraine is losing in every way and the sooner they sit down make a lasting ceasefire the better for them. The average Russian in Russia is going about their daily life, the average Ukrainian is living under threat of war how sad is that. I personally hate seeing people die because politicians did not prevent a war. Ukraine is about to lose about 109,000 square kilometres of land in the 4 referendums underway.

Where will the Russians go once these 4 areas are under their control, probably further west and take over Odessa, the only remaining Black sea access Ukraine has, then what happens. They will not be able to send and receive cargo by sea, enough is enough someone needs to sit both sides down say make a ceasefire, stop the fighting and work out a lasting peace agreement. I simply can not see these two sides taking the initiative to do it on their own, someone needs to call a serious sit down and bring them to the table before things get worse.

I doubt the areas captured by Russia will ever go back to Ukraine at this point it is how much more of Ukraine will remain in Ukraine, so the sooner a ceasefire is announced the better.

I honestly only care about the average person who is now living in fear of being killed in this war, people everywhere just want to live their life in peace and take care of their family.

I hear what you are saying and I totally agree that I dont want to see the suffering go on any longer than it has to either.

But I dont agree that Ukraine is loosing, infact I think its the other way round. Russia is the one that's in trouble on the battlefield right now. And soon their economy will be in trouble too. Nobody said sanctions would work in 6 months, it was always for the long run

But let me ask you, what do you think Ukraine should do ? If you think that giving Putin the Donbass region will be the end of it then let me remind you that they already let him have Crimea back in 2014........ and now he's come back for more ! If they give him another chunk of territory now, he will simply come back for more again and again. Exactly as Hitler did when we gave him Czechoslovakia in 1939. 6 months later he was back for Poland

Putin's stated aim is to wipe out the Ukranian government of "Nazis" and annex the entire country

How do you negotiate peace with someone like that ??? Would you give in if it was YOUR country that was being invaded ??

I think Churchill said it best "You cannot negotiate with a tiger when your head is in its mount" lol

[TheButcher]

I hear what you are saying and I totally agree that I dont want to see the suffering go on any longer than it has to either.

But I dont agree that Ukraine is loosing, infact I think its the other way round. Russia is the one that's in trouble on the battlefield right now. And soon their economy will be in trouble too. Nobody said sanctions would work in 6 months, it was always for the long run

But let me ask you, what do you think Ukraine should do ? If you think that giving Putin the Donbass region will be the end of it then let me remind you that they already let him have Crimea back in 2014........ and now he's come back for more ! If they give him another chunk of territory now, he will simply come back for more again and again. Exactly as Hitler did when we gave him Czechoslovakia in 1939. 6 months later he was back for Poland

Putin's stated aim is to wipe out the Ukranian government of "Nazis" and annex the entire country

How do you negotiate peace with someone like that ??? Would you give in if it was YOUR country that was being invaded ??

I think Churchill said it best "You cannot negotiate with a tiger when your head is in its mount" lol

I just do not see Putin or Russia backing off until they have something to tell their people in the way of a victory.No one in any conflict wants to be seen as a loser. The solution is for both parties to save face and exit without having to look defeated and humiliated. So it comes down to an exit that keeps both parties somewhat saving face in front of their own people and the wider world.

I have no dog in this fight and am not taking sides, just to be clear, I am looking at it from purely a position of strength and Russia is way stronger that Ukraine, and is fighting on Ukrainian soil. All the sanctions threw at Russia have not made a difference. Russia is still selling it's energy, food, fertilizer, weaponry and other resources to the east. All that has been accomplished is Russia was always trying to integrate into the West as a European country now it is looking east to the Indo-Pacific. Guess who is the two major countries are we should be worried about. India and China, both are a billion four hundred thousand, both have big ambitions. We have pushed Russia in their lap.

The great British idea of divide and rule ( some would say conquer) did not happen, the exact opposite took place. Now after rambling on let me get back to your question, what should Ukraine do.

Sit behind closed doors work out a deal where Russia withdraws it's troops, they call a ceasefire, both sides stop at the point of contact they are at and accept reality as hard as it might be, Ukraine agrees not to pursue goals of joining NATO. The Russians go back to their people say we achieved our objectives, the Ukrainians tell their people we stopped the war and came to a long lasting peace treaty with Russia.

We have been sending boat loads I mean billions of dollars worth of military equipment and money to Ukraine for a long time, public support for this war in Europe and north America is going to die off as inflation, gas prices, energy prices, food all go up. Winter is approaching we are going to see people cold and hungry in Europe, not in North America. Last thing Ukraine needs is for the support to die off, I mean the money. Their economy is hurting for obvious reasons. That is another sad state of affairs, people don;t have jobs to go to.

The longer it takes to make a peace deal the more Ukraine is going to hut, lose and suffer. We both agree that is the last thing either one of us wants.

[tacnet]

Yep you make some valid points there. One way or another, this has to come to an end and the sooner the better

I dont think Russia is in a good a shape as you think though. I would give him 6 months before his economy collapses

I honestly dont think China and India want anything to do with Putin at the moment. Both have expressed "concerns" about what he is doing as both are heavily reliant on exports to the west (think of all those chinese consumer electronics we buy).

Neither wants to fall foul of sanctions and with the west struggling with the cost of living, we are not importing anywhere near what we used to. As a result, both their economies are struggling right now. Plus they are not buying Russian oil yet because there is no pipeline to the east.

I hear what you are saying but what concerns me is Putins goals. His ambitions go FAR beyond Ukraine. He has publicly stated that he wants to rebuild the former Soviet Union, putting the borders back to where they were in 1990. That means invading and occupying all those former eastern block countries ie. Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary etc etc.

I honestly dont believe that if we give him a bit of Ukraine, that will be the end of it. After all, he's already invaded Crimea and Georgia and he still wants more

The other thing that concerns me is his grip on the world economy. He has single handidly brought the world to the brink of ecanomic disaster by driving up the oil price. If we give into him now, he will use that as a weapon against us the next time he invades one of our allies.

As much as I want to see peace, I truly believe that if we give into Putins demands it will lead to more war. Just like it did with Hitler

Nice to have an educated debate about it though lol

[TheButcher]

I don;t see how we can cut off doing business with India and China they produce too much of what the west buys, and them saying they have "concerns" is not stopping them buying up all the oil and gas Russia can sell them, at a discount of course. I might say I am concerned about carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere but still drive my car everywhere.

I can not think of any other way to stop this war without making him feel as if he won something out of it and not lost face. But the sooner it ends the better, you never know when it can go WW3. In all my life I have never heard so many people in so many high up places keep mentioning a nuclear war, this is really concerning. All it will take is one side to over step and once a nuke is fired all the others will follow and earth won't be habitable for a long time.

Peace

[tacnet]

In all my life I have never heard so many people in so many high up places keep mentioning a nuclear war, this is really concerning. All it will take is one side to over step and once a nuke is fired all the others will follow and earth won't be habitable for a long time.

I hear what your saying but despite all the rhetoric I dont think we are anywhere near crossing that line

Putin knows he cant go nuclear. It would be suicide and the whole world (including China and India) would condem him. Even if he lost the plot and tried to lash out, his generals are not stupid. They simply wouldn't do it.

Thats why Nato has not changed its strategic nuclear threat level since this war began. We were a lot closer to all out nuclear war during the cold war than we are right now

[pokerking]

Do you see this end by Christmas so people can get back to living their normal lives.Think of the families with where one partner is Russian the other Ukrainian.

[TheButcher]

I hear what your saying but despite all the rhetoric I dont think we are anywhere near crossing that line

Putin knows he cant go nuclear. It would be suicide and the whole world (including China and India) would condem him. Even if he lost the plot and tried to lash out, his generals are not stupid. They simply wouldn't do it.

Thats why Nato has not changed its strategic nuclear threat level since this war began. We were a lot closer to all out nuclear war during the cold war than we are right now

I hope you are right and cooler heads give good counsel if and when that moment comes. There simply can not be any winners in a nuclear war.